An Interview with Kenji Tosaki: How the SEGA Dreamcast and its Beloved Peripherals Came to Be

One day we realised that The Dreamcast Junkyard account on Twitter (or X, as it is now known...) was followed by none other than Kenji Tosaki, the peripheral development manager at SEGA of Japan from the 1990s until 2001, when he retired. He led the design process for classic SEGA Saturn peripherals like the 3D Control Pad and the Virtua Gun, but perhaps most importantly to us here at the Junkyard, he was heavily involved with the design of the Dreamcast console hardware, its controller, the Visual Memory Unit (VMU), and even the Samba de Amigo Maracas Controller, to name a few. To have such an important figure from SEGA's heyday follow usof all peoplewas truly an honour. We knew we had to reach out and try and arrange some sort of opportunity to speak with him.

What followed was a whole lot of machine-translated correspondence, and we must thank Tosaki-san for answering all our questions, as well as his time and patience throughout this process. Another thank you also goes out to Brian Vines and Laurence Goodchild for assisting me with the decision on which questions to ask, as well as Derek Pascarella for some technical explanations.

Of course, we couldn't just let the resulting interview you see below remain machine-translated, so this is where I must extend a huge thanks to translation extraordinaire (and my former Nakoruru fan translation comrade-in-arms) Duralumin, who graciously translated Tosaki-san's original Japanese answers into English.

What was revealed from our conversation with Tosaki-san is a whole lot of great insight into how the Dreamcast hardware and many beloved peripherals came to be. We also thought it was important to use this opportunity to try and dig deeper into some of the more esoteric Dreamcast-related lore, to try and get some light shone on topics that have fuelled debates within SEGA fan communities for decades. Why was a second analog stick a no show on the Dreamcast controller? What was SEGA's view on adopting the almighty DVD format that would've supposedly helped the Dreamcast go toe-to-toe with Sony's PlayStation 2? We also made sure to pick Tosaki-san's brain about some cancelled Dreamcast peripherals, such as the VMU MP3 player, with the hopes of unearthing new information about them.

While our interview does touch on the SEGA Saturn somewhat, it is mainly referenced to assist the explanation of points relating to the Dreamcast's own design. If you'd like to hear Tosaki-san get more in-depth about the Saturn, I highly recommend you go check out his interview with our friends over at SEGA SATURN, SHIRO!

Credit: SEGA Retro

DCJY: Thank you for agreeing to talk with us about your career at SEGA, Tosaki-san. We have read that you were involved with the design of the Dreamcast console. The design was definitely more compact than its predecessor, the Saturn, and very futuristic-looking for the time. When you and your team set out to design the console, what inspired the design?

Kenji Tosaki: The lead director and producer on the design of the Dreamcast was actually Mr. Oikawa [Akitoshi Oikawa], who also handled the design of the SEGA Saturn. For the Dreamcast, the design of the console itself was contracted out, but Mr. Oikawa personally handled the controllers and other peripherals.

Now, when the Saturn was still in development, we ended up drawing up the design ahead of finalizing how much space all the internals would need. Stuff like the main board, the CD drive, power supply unit, all of that. The original design was quite a bit smaller than what the Saturn finally became. As development progressed, we added more components, and the footprint grew larger.

The preliminary designs for the console couldn't accommodate all the changes, so we had to go back to the drawing board, and it ended up quite a bit different from what we had originally envisioned. It had to be made larger, so we also had to redesign some of the finer details of its appearance to match.

With the Saturn, the technical development —the main board, the drive unit, etc.— and the product design had been sort of progressing on different fronts, and that disconnect caused us a lot of issues. Plus, the technical design turned out to be more complex than expected, so the production and assembly was more complicated. We learned from all of that when we were working on the Dreamcast. 

Our top priorities in designing the Dreamcast were to optimize the internal layout and heat dissipation. I think the internal design turned out really nice and clean. Of course, keeping it simple also helped with assembly. We also waited to plan out the console design until the technical design had been locked in to a certain extent, so we didn’t have to go back and rework a lot of things.

Regarding the design itself, we shopped the job around to a wide variety of outside agencies for proposals;  not just Japanese companies, but even American design houses. Mr. Oikawa reviewed a ton of ideas. 

Ultimately, Mr. Oikawa went with a relatively minor Japanese company’s proposal. They did a very good job of taking Mr. Oikawa’s asks into account when building their approach.

On the conceptual approach, I’ll quote Mr. Oikawa himself:

"The Dreamcast design is made up of simple shapes; squares, triangles, and circles. The point of the triangle points toward the player, representing how the games and online content were to be player-focused. From the console, straight to the player. But then the start button on the controller points towards the Dreamcast. That represents how, in response, the players reach out and connect with the console."

Credit: SEGA Retro

When you and your team were designing the Dreamcast's controller, what were the most important features or aspects that you knew it had to include? It is well known that the Dreamcast controller shares some design similarities to the Saturn's 3D Control Pad, which you also worked on. How much did that controller inspire the Dreamcast's controller?

When we were developing the Saturn 3D Controller, that was the first time we had ever tried to design an analog-input controller. We looked at how we could best make an analog controller, and spent a lot of time working on the basic design, control methods, layouts, and all the associated design questions.

We also looked into all kinds of additional features; stuff like integrated displays, paddle wheel controls, mouse input, motion sensing, infrared, rumble, haptics, voice recognition... many different things. Most of these features proved too costly to have natively on the Saturn 3D pad, but we made sure to design the controller to include an expansion port so those features could be added later.

We had actually planned out a motion sensor and vibration pack, and even made a prototype. We made sure that the controller's cord ran out of the back, since anything to do with motion sensors that you would have to tilt or shake around would be harder to use with the cord coming out of the front of the controller. 

For the analog inputs, we felt it was essential to use a sensor that wouldn't experience any change in the analog signal from drift or wear. To accomplish that, we used "Hall" elements. We knew we definitely didn’t want resistive sensors. We didn’t add them for the sake of having a selling point, we just saw it as the obvious choice. It wasn’t until 2020 that we saw other companies start making controllers with those same Hall elements. I guess the market finally caught up to the SEGA 3D Control Pad, and it only took 25 years.

When it came to the Dreamcast controller, we applied a lot of what we had learned from the Saturn 3D pad.

As I mentioned, the idea behind the Dreamcast ecosystem was “play and communication.” The console could go online, but the concept extended beyond just that. There were also four controller ports, so you could have four people at once all playing together. Then, we decided we would try putting an individual display on each controller. We had originally conceived it as something like a personal monitor for each player for sports games, with individual displays. The VMU was our solution.

Connecting the VMUs directly to the console would have meant we would have to add four pretty big ports for four players’ VMUs, which wasn’t a great solution from either a cost or design standpoint. So, we decided to explore plugging the VMUs into the controllers instead. Every VMU would be like a memory pack, but with an LCD screen and control buttons; it could have its own independent apps, and when it was plugged into the controller, the screen would serve as an additional display.

Away from the controller, you could connect VMUs together to swap data with your friends, or play games against each other. That was another facet of the “communication” concept. For us on the peripherals team, we figured it wasn’t likely that every kid would have an internet connection they could use to play online, so we focused on ways we could build “play and communication” through controllers and accessories.

We also planned out a built-in gyro sensor, so you could control games by moving the controller, as well as built-in vibration, and a built-in light gun pointing device. It turned out to be too expensive to implement those features natively, so we decided to build two expansion slots into the controller. That would leave room for us to release expansion units after the fact. We expected one slot would usually be occupied by the VMU, so we needed to have one more for other expansions.

The most important decision made regarding the controller was to have memory units connect to it instead of the console. We designed the VMUs for that purpose.

The controllers themselves were developed to work with an interface device [MapleBus] that could also support VMUs and any expansion packs. MapleBus proved essential, as it had the kind of scalability we needed.

For the expansion slots, we had to think about what sort of functionality we would need in the future. For instance, if we put out a rumble pack, the vibrations from that accessory would travel down to the slot and the connector. That’s not necessarily healthy for the components, and we expected these to be used long-term. So, we had to come up with a design for the connectors that would be durable and reliable.

The analog input was also much more advanced than the 3D Control Pad. We improved the precision, and allowed wider strokes. At the same time, the units could be made smaller, and needed less space to install internally.

I really would have liked to have seen the gyros, vibration, and wireless pointing built-in on the controller, but it just would’ve been too expensive.

The original US patent for the VMU. Credit: SEGA Retro

There has been a lot of discussion online over the years about whether the Dreamcast controller would have benefited from having a second analog stick. Were there any discussions about adding a second analog stick, and if so, what resulted in the decision for it to not be included? 

We didn’t have any requests from the software side to add a second stick. It never even came up for discussion. In fact, after the Saturn, which had six face buttons, there was a lot of demand to have less, and change the Dreamcast controller to have just four face buttons.

SEGA's gaming philosophy has its roots in arcade games, and arcade games don’t come with instruction manuals. They have to be designed so that someone can just walk up, look at the screen, the joystick, the buttons, and know what to do. Our software developers were always looking for ways to simplify controls, that’s just the culture at SEGA. Things like PC games with complex controls, or hyper-detailed simulation games, those aren’t really part of how SEGA does things. So we never considered adding a second stick.

Did the final VMU design match the original concept closely? Were there any features you wanted to add if there was more time?

At first we had planned on using a lower-resolution LCD display, but developers on the game side requested a higher resolution, so we settled on the display used in the final model.

With the technology at the time, we really struggled to reduce power consumption, and hit a limit on the battery life. I think we were maybe a few years too early with the VMU, and I really would've liked to have returned to it after the technology for portable devices had matured a little more so we could remake it to need less power.

As your team collaborated with the software teams to develop games and peripherals at the same time, in what way did the design of the peripherals and the design of the game influence each other?

Games and peripherals would be proposed as a set, and if approved, we would start on development. If there weren’t any games for a controller to support, then the controller didn’t have any purpose.

In a lot of cases, the game concept would come first, and then the controller would be planned after. Based on whatever requests we had from the development team, we would design a controller shaped like a gun, or a fishing rod, or so forth.

There were occasionally cases where we proposed a peripheral first, and the game concept followed. We had been looking into voice recognition technology for a long time, and we made a pitch. One of the developers took an interest, and said “I've come up with a good idea that would work for this, so let’s develop it,” and that was how we came out with the microphone and Seaman.

The Samba de Amigo Maracas Controller is a beloved peripheral for the dreamcast. What was the thinking and design process behind adapting the arcade game's controllers to be a Dreamcast peripheral that worked at home?

First, just so you know, let me talk you through how the maraca controllers work. 

For the arcade version of Samba de Amigo, there are a number of LEDs on the side of the maracas, and a light sensor on the cabinet picks up their position. For the console version, that wasn't possible, both due to cost and varying play environments in the home. We had to think of a completely different approach.

The peripheral team came up with 10 different sensing methods and considered their merits. We elected to use three-point triangulation using ultrasonic sensors. However, with how the ultrasonics work over the air, we ran into issues with the variation in play environment, the required computing power, and especially with the measuring interval, three times per 1/60th second. Or, in two-player mode, six times. Ultrasonic signals travel slowly, so we were seeing lag between transmitting and receiving the signals. We decided to try out two-point triangulation instead, or four for two players. By placing the ultrasonic sensors in the sensor bar, we could fix those two reference points. However, the further the player moved from the sensor bar, that also increased the distance of the maracas from the sensors, and that would cause the maracas to be interpreted as higher from the floor. So, to maintain accurate detection, it was important to maintain a standard distance. In order to keep players at an optimal distance from the sensor bar, we decided to include a floor mat with the game so they could see where their feet should be. This helped keep players stationary at the right distance, and kept the maracas right above the sensor bar. This flattened the space the signal was measured across, and let us more accurately track the height of the maracas. 

I think the maracas really were an exceptionally well-done controller. Both the electrical and mechanical engineering were masterfully designed. I think it might be the single most perfectly planned-out product I've ever worked on.

Credit: Hit-Japan

A few years ago, the Junkyard conducted an investigation into a game that was showcased at the Spring Tokyo Game Show 2001, called "Real Racer IX". Potentially developed by a student of the Digital Entertainment Academy, the game utilised both the Maracas and the Fishing Rod Controller as part of a running game. Were you aware if SEGA had any further plans to utilise peripherals like the Fishing Rod or Maracas for other genres of games beyond their original purpose (for fishing games and rhythm games - respectively)?

That would be a question for the game development team. It was up to the developers and game planners to decide what kind of peripherals they would want to support. 

For launch titles, the peripheral team did help to some extent, but after the release of any particular peripheral, the game developers would be the ones to consider what peripherals would be compatible with their game.

Which project was the biggest challenge for your team, and how did you overcome it?

We had plenty of tough challenges. Every project comes with its own issues, and each of them usually has a story behind how they were resolved.

Take the VMU, for example. When we first proposed the VMU, the proposal was very well-received. The company was so interested that they even asked us to release it as an independent game system a few months ahead of the Dreamcast being released in Japan. That was the Pocket Godzilla [Japanese: "Shuuketsu Gojira," or "Godzilla Collection"]. To make that happen, however, we had to significantly accelerate the VMU development schedule to get it out ahead of the Dreamcast. Testing the VMU interface and making sure it would work with the Dreamcast's firmware proved to be a real challenge in that shortened timeframe.

Credit: SEGA Retro

How did you feel when SEGA discontinued the Dreamcast?

When the decision was made to discontinue the Dreamcast, I was technically part of the development department but my position was on the executive team. That meant I had a little more insight on SEGA's financial situation. I was also aware that we would stop production and that major restructuring was on the way.

It was a shame, but I'm not sure what else could've been done at the time.

Before its discontinuation, was there much discussion about the Dreamcast adopting the DVD format, either in the form of an add-on or some kind of hardware revision? There was a Dreamcast DVD player showcased at E3 2000, were you involved with the development of this device at all?

There were no plans to develop any further versions of the Dreamcast. The DVD format was also not an option we were going to implement. The two main reasons for this were that the licensing fee for DVD was high and the DVD drive unit would've been too expensive.

I have actually never seen the Dreamcast DVD player from the linked webpage before. It was probably put together by SEGA of America or SEGA of Europe as a proof of concept.

Credit: SEGA Retro

Regarding other cancelled Dreamcast add-ons and peripherals, do you recall much about the Dreamcast Zip Drive add-on, as well as the VMU MP3 player?

There was a Zip drive being developed and a working sample was completed. I believe it was displayed at a trade show.

An MP3 player was considered by my team in collaboration with a UK affiliate, but almost nothing was developed. Too many issues arose; such as how the downloadable music would be sold and stored (i.e. on mass storage devices), as well as the MP3 player's on-board memory and battery life. I believe the MP3 player on the page you linked me is a mockup created by SEGA of Europe. My team were not involved in this mockup at all. If my team were involved, we would have not put a headphone jack where it is in the photo. There should be a connector to the controller there.

Credit: DevCast (originally IGN)

If the Dreamcast hadn’t been discontinued, what other peripheral would you have liked to have developed for the Dreamcast?

I wanted to make a light gun that works on image recognition, so it would work with LCD TVs too.

We never came up with any kind of actual plans for this, but I would've wanted to release an updated controller with an image-recognition light gun, gyro sensor, and vibration built in. The light gun functionality would have doubled as a pointing device, just like the Nintendo Wii Remote. And with the gyro sensor, you would have been able to control games by tilting or shaking the controller.

Rather than getting games noticed through advanced graphics, the idea was to focus on more interesting play styles. In concept, it was pretty close to the Wii Remote. We wanted to leverage the peripherals to make more interesting games. But, I'm not sure the technology was there yet. Everyone probably would've said we were about 10 years ahead of the curve.

I also spent about seven years looking into VR in the SEGA Saturn era. I would've liked to have put something out that used VR, but at the time I could see how limited we were with it, so looking back I'm glad I didn't push it.

If you were to design a new controller today, what features or innovations would you like to see?

That's a tough one. I stepped away from console development in 2001, and I haven't bought a new system since the Wii. I'm not particularly interested in any of the high-end graphics-focused games and consoles that emerged after the [PlayStation 3]. But, back around the year 2001, I did have a few ideas.

I figured there wasn't really much difference anymore between high-end console games and PC games. Both were focusing on experiences for the gaming enthusiast market. I also expected that portable gaming consoles would become mainstream, just like how the Game Boy Advance exploded. I imagined there would be a console with a high-definition color LCD that could connect to the internet and that you could play anywhere. As it turns out, Apple released that console in 2007. They called it the iPhone.

However, smartphones only had the touchscreen for controls, which limited them in terms of gaming, so I think the Nintendo Switch was the real next step forward for consoles. If it didn't have that issue with the analog sticks drifting, it would be perfect.

Now, if I were to make a new high-end controller today...

I've been interested in prosthetic arm and leg technology since the SEGA days. I always imagined it would be possible to apply military or medical technology to gaming. My idea was to detect the electrical signals in muscles and translate it to input for video games. Then, the game would use electrical impulses to directly stimulate the player, simulating sensory input. In other words, instead of a visual display, it would act directly on the nervous system and retinas. Players would wear a special body suit and helmet, and lie down on their bed. The game would be shown directly to their brain, and they would control it through their mental responses, sending electrical signals to their muscles that would be detected by the game.

That's the kind of controller device I'd like to make now. Though, that's not to say it would be simple to use, and you couldn't just pick it up and play. I certainly wouldn't want one myself, but I'd like to design it!

Is there anything you’d want to say to our readers who still enjoy playing their SEGA Dreamcasts in 2024 - a whole 25 years after it was originally released?

Thank you for your continued support of the Dreamcast and SEGA games. I'm truly grateful to see it. If these games have in any way touched your heart, fascinated you, or made for fond memories, that's all I could ask.

***

Thank you once again to Kenji Tosaki for talking to us about his fascinating career at SEGA. Be sure to let us know in the comments below or via our social media which part of this interview stood out to you the most.

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6 comments:

Tom Charnock said...

What a brilliant and insightful interview. Great stuff indeed!

Derek Pascarella said...

This was an absolutely fantastic interview!

Leo.Palmer said...

Amazing work once again guys!

Efraim said...

What an interesting interview! And I'm glad you could really get to the bottom about the prototype DVD player and VMU MP3. I would love to hear if they ever made mock-ups or prototypes of the controller with the features he talked about, like vibration or gyro sensors. It would also be interesting to hear what he thinks about the peripherals that are being made for the DC now, more than 20 years after it has been discontinued, like VM2 or Retro Fighters gamepads.

DCGX said...

That was fascinating! Especially the team hearing from devs to have less buttons. Kind of weird since the Dualshock 1 was out a year before the Dreamcast's Japanese release (which arguably should've been pushed to 1999 anyway).

Kingmonkey25 said...

Great interview, especially love the insight into the Dreamcast maracas!